Board Recruitment With Christoph Clodius, VP, The Discovery Group

Douglas Nelson sits down with Christoph Clodius, Vice President of The Discovery Group, to explore the essentials of board recruitment. Together, they delve into how organizations can bring new perspectives to their boards, discussing everything from selecting candidates who reflect the community’s diversity to creating value-added boards that drive impact. Christoph shares practical insights on modern recruitment practices, explaining why boards should be intentional and proactive in their approach. Whether you’re part of a nonprofit or looking to strengthen your organization’s leadership, this episode offers valuable advice on building a committed and dynamic board.

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Board Recruitment With Christoph Clodius, VP, The Discovery Group

Introduction To Board Recruitment

For this episode, I’m joined by my colleague Christoph Clodius, Vice President at the Discovery Group to talk about board recruitment, current trends, what we’re seeing in the marketplace and some path forward for organizations that truly want to get to a value-added board. Welcome, Christoph.

Thanks, Doug. It’s always a pleasure to chat with you about these important issues and I’m looking forward to a good discussion.

Christoph, one of the things that you said, we were talking about this issue and which prompted me. We said, “We got to make an episode out of this.” Increasingly, what you’re seeing is organizations wanting to treat board recruitment very similarly to the way they treat recruitment of senior positions. That it’s a job search. Now, that’s probably a bit of an anathema to a number of people who think, “This is just a nice volunteer job that people do.” Why should organizations treat it like a job search?

First and foremost, it’s such an important part of an organization. It’s the governance role. It’s got fiduciary responsibilities. It has to make sure the mission is being served by the organization and having leadership that fulfills that mandate. It’s such a crucial part of an organization. If a board isn’t well managed, well maintained and doesn’t have that leadership in the organization itself. It will release suffering, if you will.

The reason I like to think of it and I’m glad to see more organizations treating it as a job search and taking it very seriously. Not being done off the side of its desk. Not being done as an occasional or when we need to or, “The AGMs are coming up and we’re losing a couple of members. We better get on it.” Being deliberate, thoughtful, and strategic about boarding engagement. Board recruiting and board on boarding, these are the kinds of things organizations think about from a staff perspective and applying those principles to abort is just as valuable.

You mean to say that it takes more than just finding your own replacement when your terms are almost up on the board?

Don’t just find your own replacement—be deliberate and strategic about board recruitment to ensure lasting impact and meaningful contributions. Click To Tweet

Only a little bit. That’s generally what I would suggest, yes.

One of the things that we’re seeing in our work with strategic planning, governance review, and even organizations preparing for significant fundraising campaigns, they’re looking at the skills matrix. If they’ve got one, they’re dusting it off from a few years ago and looking at, do we have the right people around the board table? That’s with professional experiences or connections in the community. There’s a lot more that boards need to be looking at in terms of reflecting the communities they serve. What advice are you giving to boards who are wanting to truly embrace the diversity of the communities they serve and reflect the emerging face of Canada?

There’s a few things in play there. As you said, reflecting the communities they serve and not necessarily starting off with a position of, “A lawyer is leaving, or our accountant is leaving. We need to replace a like for like kind of person.” Thinking a bit more creatively and a bit beyond the classic matrix, but I know there’s value in a matrix. They’re very important things to have, but you might want to look outside of that particular model because in some organizations, legal services can be provided by a paid provider. Financial services is much the same thing.

A well-rounded board isn’t just about professional titles. Think creatively and diversify beyond the classic matrix! Click To Tweet

When you think about it outside of that particular lens, it lends more opportunity, if you will, to diversifying your board and not tying yourself into very narrow parameters. That’s one thing that comes to mind for me. The other piece comes back to the conversation about making it like a job search. With a job search, you want to post widely. You want to cast as wide a net as you can, possibly. You want to reach as many people as you possibly can.

Again, not just finding your own replacement and not working within your own networks can be very insular but thinking about the organization you are and where you want to post. Where you might be looking can be as widely as a vantage point posting or a charity village posting or being very deliberate. Thinking about former clients, patrons, or users of your services. It speaks a little bit to, again, this is a fundraising best practice, developing your potential pipeline of candidates for a board. That can come from any number of places. Not limiting yourself to a particular scope and profession is a great starting point.

There’s a lot in there, Christoph. I am going to break it into a couple of pieces because one of the things you said there is important. Historically, and even many years ago, before the rapid professionalization of the social profit sector, it made sense to have a legal professional around the board table providing legal advice or at least just a legal first take on issues that came to the board. When we’re working with large social profit organizations, even midsize social profit organizations. They have a lawyer. They’re paying for legal advice. Do organizations still need to have a lawyer around the table?

I would say if your organization is serving a very strongly legal oriented community like a ecojustice, for instance, or an environmental defense fund organization or an organization that’s advocating legally for people who are underserved or underrepresented or treated inevitably by legal systems. I would say, that’s important. Theoretically, yes but I wouldn’t say by definition. This isn’t to denigrate my lawyer friends or the legal community in any means. Your finance committee likely needs to have some finance professionals around that table, for instance, but not by definition, I wouldn’t say. That’s what comes to mind for me. You work with boards probably more so than I do. What do you think?

I think the role of finances, one, we need an accountant to share the finance committee. Sometimes that’s true. I’ve seen lots of people who don’t have an accounting designation, do an exceptional job as chair. It’s the financial acumen you’re looking for. The designation may imply, but maybe not imply. Other than looking for those credentials, you should be looking for the people who are connected to your mission who can provide leadership in those roles. I wouldn’t limit myself. If you’re losing a lawyer or a chartered accountant from your board, I would say it’s not mandatory. It may not even be necessary to replace those credentials. There may be other skill sets other parts of the matrix that you want to fill to round out your board.

Rather than looking for credentials, look for people who are connected to your mission and can provide leadership in those roles. Click To Tweet

The one thing I’ll add to that as well is very important is the candidate considerations, if you will. A lot of the work I do in search practice is looking at things from the candidate lens, the candidate perspective. Not all professionals want to necessarily do what they do for a living on a board. Sometimes, they themselves want a branch out, learn, and contribute in different ways. I talked to a ton of fundraisers that don’t necessarily want to join a board so that they can fundraise for that organization.

For one thing, it can sometimes be a conflict or it can be very awkward in some ways. Another case is they want to contribute to the governance practices. They want to recruit and be supportive of the HR committee, for instance. They have different things to contribute in different ways. They may not necessarily want to do that. Targeting a profession may not necessarily work in that respect.

The Role Of CEO In Board Recruitment

Giving people the chance to show up as professionals or show up as their best selves on your board table in a way that reflects. The commitment they have to the organization is very important. What role do you see the CEO or executive director playing in board recruitment?

The CEO or ED has a big role to play certainly in board recruitment. However, it can’t be the only role. They’re effectively choosing their supervisors. They’re choosing their coach, if they’re going down that road. It’s a very delicate situation. Certainly, identifying and being supportive of the board and the governance committee, if that’s the case. In terms of recruiting, it’s a key role. Certainly, having candidates or giving candidates the opportunity to meet with the CEO or ED in that recruiting process can have a lot of value. Onboarding is a place where they can play a key role fundamentally. It’s a delicate balance but they do play a key role.

It’s something that I see. It’s a question that I’m asked on a weekly basis, I would say, with starting working with a board, a new board, or a new CEO. What is the role of the organizational leader in that board recruitment? It’s interesting to see CEOs who’ve been in their role for a year or two, tend to have very limited participation or limited access to potential candidates. One common theme of anyone who’s been in the role for five plus years, they are actively involved in choosing their board.

As someone who has reported to boards for many years, I would be suspicious of someone willing to join your board without wanting to talk to the CEO and wanting to know how the organization’s performing, how the leadership is oriented towards fulfilling the purpose and what’s going on under the hood. If someone is willing to rely only on what they’re hearing from other volunteer board members. Certainly, they’re not going to be your most sophisticated or they’re unlikely to be your most sophisticated board director.

You want to make sure that as CEO, you have a good relationship with people. At least a familiarity with people as they come onto the board so you can build on that relationship over time. New CEOs tend to let the board look after that. They’ve got a lot on their plate as they’re reorienting the organization, orienting themselves to the organization. I would say there’s not a single CEO, five years in the role that isn’t intimately connected to shaping the list of potential board members vetting that list in interviewing those individuals before they come on to the port.

Very much so. The one thing I’ll say sometimes, that pendulum can be too far. We see that sometimes in organizations that have been led by one single individual for their entire lifespan, founding organizations where the board has been recruited in its entirety by that CEO, if you will. The board, the CEO, and the organization are all synonymous in unwrapping that twine a little bit can be a challenge as an organization tries to progress and evolve fundamentally.

You’re putting your finger on something we should do another episode on somewhere down the road but that’s one of the symptoms and characteristics of founderitis. Founderitis can be the person who founded the organization. You can also be someone who’s been a legacy leader having led the organization for a very long time. It can also be a board chair, that is stated as board chair beyond eight years on the board and beyond four years as board chair. Well into their dotage when it comes to what’s an inappropriate time to be a volunteer.

Transitioning Founders To The Board: Does It Work?

That brings us to a question that is one of your favorites and I want to give you the chance to share with the world and our readers. When you’ve got someone who’s been a long-serving CEO or even was the founder. One of the ways to make that person feel good with the transition often, as ports will say, “Why don’t you transition to being on the board for a while?” Step off from being CEO and move on to the board. Christoph, is that a good idea for organizations?

It’s a great idea and principle but it very rarely works in my experience. What I mean by that is the founder has been so closely tied to the organization. You see this often with long term CEOs, as well as a transition out. Being so tied in and so emotionally invested in the real life of the organization. It’s a very difficult transition for a founder to make. It’s not their fault. It’s not necessarily a failing in their leadership to step away from the organization.

Ultimately, it serves the organization best to have a period of renewal, growth, and where the new ED, the new leader can come in and make their mark independent of the shadow, the legacy or however you want to define that, of the founder. The founder needs to play a key role. They need to be involved in supporting the succession, supporting this new person coming on board. Supporting the board as well in that transition. It overly complicates things and muddies the water quite significantly if that founder is still closely involved with the organization to a very significant degree.

What I’ve seen with organizations that have made that disastrous choice, maybe that’s not the words you use. It made the choice step along serving CEO or the legacy CEO to go on to the board. It’s an easier way. It’s a way to smooth the transition from that legacy CEO out of the role as you’re not leaving. You’re just going to change your role. It’s a way to step down and be gradual about it. There is an immediate soothing of the situation by making the choice but some powerful long-term effects.

I reflect again from that perspective of having reported reports. Coming into an organization and having your predecessor on the board. You’re needing to go to that board for advice on how to address challenges in the organization and how to deal with staff. Whether they’re new or long serving in the organization. A lot of the key strategic issues that often we see pivot with change in leadership or because of the change in leadership.

Those conversations can’t get full voice if you’ve got to be careful around the emotions and the ego of the founder or the Legacy CEO that’s on the table. It is like treating your new CEO, instead of giving them a full driver’s license. You’re giving them a learner’s permit, but the passenger they have to have is the person that they have replaced in the organization. It’s not fair to that individual. It’s not fair to the organization and it will show up in the results.

An important piece, as you said, the emotional piece is important. it’s important to honor the legacy of the founder, their work. This is something that they founded. They put their blood, sweat, and tears into probably for decades for that matter in getting an organization to a particular part. I position that as an advantage use, as an opportunity, and a celebration of this person’s work. A celebration of what they’ve been able to achieve. Isn’t it exciting that we’re embracing and going in this new direction with the new chapter to make the organization better?

We’re still going to involve this person in some capacity in the future but, for now, let’s celebrate their work. Let’s honor that. That way, everybody’s feeling good about what’s happening. The founder doesn’t feel like they’re being shunted aside fundamentally. This is something that they build and now, they have no role or no legacy with.

That’s an important thing to think on and whenever we have the opportunity to weigh in when organizations ask, our readers can probably guess what our advice sounds a lot like. This is probably a much more challenging question, not that you and I disagree but it is a challenging issue for a number of organizations.

That is, ensuring the organizations have a board that reflects the community that they serve. Looking for that cultural, geographic, and diversity around the table and to do it in a way that is meaningful in service to purpose and avoids that feeling of tokenism that we’ve seen all too often in our sector and in our society. When you’re talking to a board chair who’s looking at doing board recruitment and she says to you, “Our boarding needs to get more diverse. How should we do that?” Where do you start?

I would say I start with a suggestion that they reflect on themselves and what message they’re sending out to the community as it is. As you said, nobody wants to be a token representative. Nobody wants to bear the burden as I understand certainly of being a token representative on a board and having to do the work of diversifying an organization of bringing say an indigenous perspective or an underrepresented group to a board, having to be looked at and engaged in every community and having to represent multiple communities. It’s wearing. It’s taxing.

The candidates that I’ve spoken to in this circumstance, can identify that right away. They’re savvy and they know what’s happening here. I suggest the board members, chairs, and recruiting be very transparent. Be open. Have those conversations. We need to diversify. We’re not representing the communities that we serve. We are looking for people that are supportive of our communities, better reflective, and will add some new voices and new perspectives to the table.

Would you consider anybody you know? Would you consider joining us for this particular reason? Have the conversation. If you mask it and you pretend to be doing something else, then it’s going to backfire immediately. You’re going to end up taking two steps back as opposed to steps forward for that matter. That’s typically where I start.

That’s great advice and a part of that moves into the next topic that I wanted to make sure we covered. We all know and anyone who’s recruited board members or cabinet members anytime in the last couple of years, knows it’s getting harder to get people to say yes. People are concerned about time commitment or they’re feeling time starved. It is a challenge to get people to agree to come on to boards. Organizations have to work harder and it’s taking longer to get to a yes.

One of the trends I’ve seen or seen a couple of instances of. It’s a little concerning as organizations are saying, “Don’t worry. Come on the board. It’s not that much work. It’s only a couple meetings a year. If you have to miss one, that’s okay. The board packages are 95 pages but we just want you there for your perspective on what happens in the meeting. Don’t worry about reading the package.”

Downplay the importance of the role of board members and the importance of the organization. The worst thing happens is that people sometimes say yes to that and think they don’t have to do the work to be a board member. What advice do you have for that same board chair who’s wanting to recruit who may be tempted to downplay the importance of the role that a board member has?

Clearly, it’s a great disservice both to the candidate and the organization to recruit under those circumstances. It’s outright deceptive for starters. It may perhaps be deliberately. Maybe a bit of a Pollyanna perspective that others will do the work as you say. Ultimately, it doesn’t serve anybody because you want people that are going to contribute. People that understand clearly what’s expected of them because again, this is serious and important work. It should be treated as such fundamentally.

Attracting Young Professionals To The Board

The other thing I’ll think about that I want to mention before I forget is thinking about branching out. We talked a little bit about diversity in some ways, but looking at younger people. Looking at people that are up and coming in their careers or their volunteer opportunities, they probably don’t have an ICD designation. They may not have served on boards before. Again, much like a best practice in staff recruiting. Bringing people that are keen, enthusiastic, and may not have all the skills and experience yet. Working with them to train their experience, being a great mentor and supporter of their development is a great candidate pool.

It’s a great opportunity to look at. Lots of young grads. New emergent grads coming out of university want to contribute and support things. The blanket statement or the generic statement I see from a lot of board members is, “They’re just here to build their resume.” “They want something.” “They want to be on the board of X, Y, and Z Foundation.” I don’t see it that way. Perhaps, I’m a bit of a Pollyanna. I like to see potential in people.

I don’t think that 2 or 3 years out of a dynamic, energetic keen person isn’t a bad thing. Compared to the potential for 6 or 7 years of a board member who’s not going to do much and to your point, not read the package. Maybe skip half the meetings and so on. I’d rather engage at that level and roll the dice on somebody with a big growth potential.

I’m glad you mentioned that. I have heard that phrase in my career as a CEO and certainly hear it a lot in the work that we do with boards. They consider, “That person’s just joining because of the resume.” Now, I can think of two people that I met in my entire career who are just doing it for their resume. I spoke with hundreds if not thousands of board members over the last couple of decades.

It may be a fear but it’s a trope that needs to go away. If we want to diversify, not just from cultural groups and ethnicity. We also want to diversify in terms of age. The opportunity and energy that younger professionals and younger people can bring to the board are nothing but an upside for organization. They help keep longer serving board members on their toes.

They may not stay as you suggest. They may not stay for 6 years or 8 years. They may be there for 1 term or 2 terms as a board member but there’s a lot of value there. I would encourage more organizations and do encourage more organizations to have younger professionals or younger people on the board as a boost of energy or as a battery pack for the board overall, if nothing else.

Very much so. There are some boards and we know the boards. There are some boards that do look great on the CV. They’re very prestigious boards. They have no trouble recruiting because they’re desirable boards by the nature of the brand, the organization, and the work. Many other organizations aren’t in that role or in that situation. For those organizations that need to do more active recruiting that are lower profile organizations or smaller organizations that may not have the instant appeal. Put your mission first and see where you end up.

We work with organizations that have a list of people who want to join their board because it is a very effective high-profile, prestigious, and successful organization being a hospital foundation or universities and a long list of community foundations. There’s a long list of boards that aren’t struggling. They’re struggling to find the right board members but not a number of board members. They have choices.

One of the things that organizations I find get to a point where they can say, “We don’t want people for whom this is their first board.” I certainly understand where that’s coming from. You want that level of sophistication. There is a learning curve for an individual as a board member. There is a lift for the organization when they need to educate first-time board members for sure. What’s your view on that? Do you think there is room for first-time board members on some of these larger more prestigious boards?

Very much so. I don’t think any organization is perfect. I don’t think any person is perfect. Shocking, I know but even the most successful and established board chair or board members, hopefully, is still learning or still growing. We don’t want people complacent or stagnant in this sector. We wan’t growth. We want continued improvement. Looking at more junior people in the ascendant of their careers is a great approach as well.

Which speaks a little bit to the importance of onboarding. The importance of bringing somebody up to speed with your mission, your bylaws and some of the documentary pieces but also the culture you’re trying to create. The mission that you have. The vision you’re trying to achieve. The role of board members in that. The classic governance versus operations models. The very smart models of boards and getting somebody up to speed on those. That can be learned. That can also be relearned. Lots of people have developed bad habits over the years and they, themselves perhaps should be doing a reorientation themselves. That’s very much a perspective, I think.

That’s great. I want to come to the end of our conversation and give a little bit of advice. Many of our readers are those CEOs or executive directors or people that want to fill those roles in the next couple of years. I’ll offer a piece of advice then I want you to give a piece of advice and maybe we’ll add to the list as we go. First and foremost, address the issue of the role of the management lead, the CEO in board recruitment.

It’s not a third rail. It’s not something that needs to be avoided. It’s a conversation to have with the governance committee or with the board chair or as the full board. We don’t want board members who don’t connect with the CEO or don’t have a conversation with the CEO before joining. We don’t want the CEO hand picking all of the board either but there is a role for the CEO on that. It varies by organization and encourages you to find what that role is and get that articulated. Even written down as a part of the governance procedures in your organization.

I’ve alluded a couple times to this, but in regards to organizational profile or organizational mission. Put the mission and put your vision at the front. When you’re doing recruiting, don’t lead with the skill set you want, with the background you’re looking for, the opportunity, and how this is going to make their lives better. Start with how they’re making communities better and how they’re fulfilling the mission of the organization. The important impact and leadership role that your organization plays in the community are key piece and what I’m doing recruiting for anything. I always start with that. You need to make a compelling case, fundamentally. Again, use the fundraising term for what you’re doing.

Do you mean don’t lead with founded in 1957?

We are a charity and not-for-profit organization certified by the CRA and we’re Imagine Canada members.

You want to lead with the good part. The third piece of advice that we have is important and Christoph talked about it, but look at your onboarding procedure. I must hear twice a month, “We know our onboarding isn’t very good. We need to do something about it,” and then we move on to the next issue. It’s something that happens onboarding in most organizations. It happens for a couple of board directors once a year. You know it’s not quite right, but then you move on and then what do you know?

The onboarding is weeks from now and there’s no time to change it. Give that as homework to your governance committee. Say, “This is something we’ve got to get right.” It’s not about the old binder. It’s not saying, “It’s up in the shared drive or the app that we use for governance documents.” It’s not about bringing them in for a four-hour session and blasting them with information and then wondering why it is that they feel like they don’t understand how the organization is going. Get to work on that. It’s great homework. It’s great work for your governance committee to be charged with reviewing, renovating, and executing on the board onboarding process.

The other point that I’ve got is just around timing and process. I alluded to this at the very beginning but just want to unpack it a bit more. Don’t leave it until the end. Don’t leave it until a month before your AGM or two months or a realization you’ve got people coming off. Try to make it a recurring activity, if you can at your meetings as appropriate, board meetings, subcommittee meetings, or whatever the case may be. Remind board members, community members, and the staff that board members need renewal on an ongoing basis.

If you look at that throughout the year, then you won’t be struggling at the last minute to fill seats. Only getting a warm body in a seat is never a strategic approach. If you can be strategic, be thoughtful, and get that pipeline of potential board members active throughout the year, you’ll be in a much stronger position when you need to do your recruiting.

The Four Roles Of A Value-Added Board

The final point we want to leave you with is, if you read the show, if you follow the Discovery Group on LinkedIn, we talk a lot about the four roles of a value added board. That’s the decider, advisor, explorer, and the ambassador. Being clear about what you’re asking your new board members and your potential board members to play in that value added matrix.

Let them know that you’re going to be giving them the opportunity to look out at the horizon as explorers. You’re primarily going to be talking to them for their expertise, showing up as their best selves in that role of advisors and providing oversight through that role of being a decider and all of the great work they’re going to do in the community as ambassadors.

Use those four roles of the value-added board as a key instrument and a key leverage point for recruiting your board. The last thing I think we need to leave them with, being on a board is fund and you get to do tremendously great work on behalf of some amazing organizations across our country. Too few organizations remember that part about fun is a part of the recruitment. Do you have any ideas about how to make it more fun? Party hats.

Balloons for the kids. Balloon animals. Get magicians to your board meetings.

Final Thoughts On Building An Effective Board

Organizations in our sector do vital work in our communities and board members are an essential component to doing that. As you’re working to build your own board and considering the makeup of the ideal board for your organization. Please listen to the advice we’ve given and know that we’re always available for a conversation to support you and your organization building that great value-added board. Thanks for being a part of the show, Christoph.

My pleasure is always. Thanks, Doug.

Important Links

• Discovery Group
• Imagine Canada
• Discovery Group – LinkedIn

About Christoph Clodius

Christoph Clodius brings a unique perspective to his role of Vice President at The Discovery Group. A leader in the executive talent management sector for over a decade, he is an exceptional relationship builder and analytical thinker that has resulted in a wealth of successful hires with a significant retention rate.

His prior development work in the education, community organization, and social profit sectors has established his considerable knowledge base of philanthropy, advancement, strategic planning, and leadership development.

Christoph is driven by those in the social profit sector who are passionate about changing the world and finds great inspiration in finding that successful candidate whose life will also change for the better. His critical thinking and ability to access people for cultural alignment, succession planning, and ultimate team building is exemplary, as his championing equity and inclusion in the sector. As well as being inspired by dedicated people with passion, he’s an advocate of all things cultural, with a penchant for music, concerts, footie, and the occasional